Cycling and indeterminate knee pain

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Bazm's picture

Bazm

Question:

Cycling and indeterminate knee pain

Having gotten back on a bike after a long lay off, I've built up to doing about 2 hours in what I call Zone 2 (BCF HR Zones) to start building base miles. I'm getting some tenderness above the knee rather than with the joint itself. It's most noticeable the next day, especially if I'm getting up out of a chair.

scousemouse78's picture

scousemouse78

Just above your knee is the quadricep muscle/tendon junction. it sounds like you are putting too much emphasis on the downstroke of your pedalling as this recruits the quads. Check your seat position and maybe put it a little higher. Either that or get some deep tissue massage... hurts but its good.

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Bazm's picture

Bazm

I should add that I'm keeping my cadence high, in the 100-110 rpm range, so I'm not mashing a big gear. The seat height should be fine, but it is a carbon seat post which could be prone to a degree of slipping so will check. But will give the massage a go - my leg muscles are seriously tight!

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elkynben's picture

elkynben

Hey, what about your crank length (range of motion)? In my case I changed my old 170mm by a new 180mm (I have 84cm inseam), no more pain in my knee, so good feeling specially in climbs.
Other point, why not consider a short to long training approximation? and a strength conditioning program before? long mileage as alone basis would weak your tissues!. Which are your needs to work on?

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Bazm's picture

Bazm

I use a 170mm crank - At 5 foot 6 (167cm) longer cranks would cause excessive motion of the knee.

The longer sessions at this point in time are based around building a base of mileage. Towards Novemeber I plan to increase the time on the bike significantly, and also introduce longer climbs. My current phase is really to gain a base of general fitness, and allow a physical and mental adaptation to being back in training.

In addition to cycling, I am engaging in light resistance training, but working the whole body, as the purpose of this is for general fitness. In addition to this, I also do a pilates session around 3 times a week.

The tenderness above the knee does not occur whilst on the bike; only later, even the next day. I wonder if it could be related to my hamstrings - which even with stretching, are tight, although they have a good range of motion when check by a physio (I am generally very flexible, so whilst the range of motion is good when compared to the general range of patients the physio sees, they are tight for my body)?

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elkynben's picture

elkynben

An article on this website refers to excessive long mileage in amateur cycling. Most cycling programmes are general, but not personalized!. If you are heavy and have big muscles, long mileage will be good but also calls for knee strength workouts(as Armstrong in oct-nov preparing the next tour). If you are thin and have weak muscles and knee, lower mileage and other focus (strength) will be better.
Perhaps the repetitive dead spot at the final of your downstroke is bad for your knee, so you would need to liberate the force/weight on the pedal before this point. Also a Q-ring would help with this.
Check this article about rounded stroke (for your hamstrings), perhaps it would help:
http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000598.html

General fitness is not only resistance, also strength. Let your knee and tissues to recover/assimilate each workout (approx 36h of rest as a PP article shows). Ask your coach "why a general workout" considering your weak links.

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Bazm's picture

Bazm

I have some suspicions over the cleats for my time pedals. They may be worn and need replacing.

Wouldn't the pedal stroke at the top centre be more likely to be the cause of my type of tenderness above the knee? Isn't this where the thigh muscles connect, and the thigh is applying max force at this point? At the bottom of the pedal cycle, you are only lifting the weight ot your leg - the muscles lifting the leg are too weak to actually pull the pedals up?

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Bazm's picture

Bazm

The more general program is simply to build basic conditioning, work on pedaling technique, increase overall cycling efficiency, and to improve the bodies ability to burn fat as a fuel source. With my lack of conditioning, to move onto heavier resistance training at this point would most likely lead to injuries and the basic conditioning is lacking.

With an adequate basic training, then I will move to what I call base 1 training, which increases time/distance to about 85% of maximum race distance, but introduces more hills, to add a degree of resistance to the training in a progressive manner. This phase will last from 4 to 8 weeks. After that, Base 2 beings, with less foucs on the "long slow distance" and more on muscular endurance, where periods of training with increased gearing to add resistance are incorporated.

Thie idea is the the training is progressively building the foundations, to allow the body to tolerate the higher intensity work to come after.

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elkynben's picture

elkynben

Do you ride at 100-110 rpm with a "big" chainring? In my case I need high cadences for triathlon, so firstly I changed the 53t by a 50t but feel no changes on my knee load (still harder due to subsequent 180 steps per min running and old knee injury), so I will go for a 44t outer chainring soon.
New cranksets have 50/34 chainrings, due to cadence preferences; Armstrong started training with higher cadences (120 rpm) to correct technique, so you can update your chainring size according with your feeling.

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elkynben's picture

elkynben

...I think you must check that your knee are at 90° when you start putting load at any point on the pedal downstroke, otherwise there would be a bad load on your knee tissues.
Perhaps a gently pedaling in reverse at the final of your workout helps to correct any acquired tissue unbalances.

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Bazm's picture

Bazm

At this stage of training, I rarely get out of the small ring (38T) as the whole idea of my program is not to introduce excessive muscle load, but to work the cardiovascular and aerobic system.

Armstrongs use of high cadences was to take the cycling stress/effort off the leg muscles (which reduced glycogen depletion) such that he still had strength to use when the rest had started to deplete their reserves. To pedal at high cadence you need good technique first. Hence the use of pedalling drills, such a intevals on pedalling with one leg.

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elkynben's picture

elkynben

You do not need good technique to pedal at high cadence, check what this PP article show:
http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/lance-armstrong.html

"Training at higher cadences also improves pedalling efficiency. When you pedal faster, any inefficiencies in your pedal technique are exaggerated, so the correction of these and maintenance of good form at higher cadences ensures consistent efficiency."

"He complements this base training with strength work. The energy demands of endurance cycling inevitably result in lost muscle mass, which the strength training restores. But you have to get it just right: excessive weight gain through strength training can put a cyclist at a disadvantage. Armstrong, for instance, is said to enjoy a 10kg weight advantage over his fierce rival Jan Ullrich for the same power output, which helps him dominate in the mountain stages. (No wonder, then, that Armstrong is so meticulous with his diet – even weighing the exact amount of food that he needs to refuel his body after training.) Strength improvements result less from hypertrophy than from neuromuscular conditioning."

Also, I read in other PP article:

"It should be noted that your cardiovascular training will adversely affect your strength training but strength training will not damage your cardio endeavours."

So do strength for your knee!! You won't lose your training stage at all.

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Bazm's picture

Bazm

I disagree. Yes, pedalling at high cadence will exaggerate the inefficiencies, but it won't correct them. To do that you need to work on technique, which involves drills working at low cadence and low resistance, then increasing both the cadence and resistance over time.

As for strength training - I refer you to the article on this site which notes that for beginning to intermediate cyclists, no noticeable gain in performance was to be had from strength training, only those who gained were elite athletes. Even at the height of my competing, I doubt I was elite.

As for strength training for the legs and knees, what is the most effective form of exercise to achieve this??

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elkynben's picture

elkynben

You are OK, no gain in performance, instead maintaining it without injury risk (at least)! Gains in cycling performance are so riding specific (but you can also do Inspiratory Muscle Training for your VO2 - check PowerBreathe).

You can do specific strength in climbs. Regarding no-riding specific strength, I think plyometrics are the best, we do them as regular basis during all the triathlon season (well, not at pre-competitive or competitive weeks), and mixed with weight lifting for general conditioning during the early season.

I think cycling is difficult to understand, so the best way is your own feeling. In my case, I am progressing with basis on errors!, most of them are bike fitting.

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